Gun Control and Crime Statistics - Does Gun Control Reduce Crime?
After Newtown, Connecticut
In the wake of the Sandy hook Elementary tragedy there has been tremendous debate in the US about increasing gun controls. It took only hours to find hundreds or thousands of forum conversations, calls from our politicians for more gun control and a general demand that something, anything, be done to prevent such an occurrence in the future.
Many of the forums were simply cries to "Eliminate gun ownership", "Get rid of assault weapons" (whatever an assault weapon is, no one seems able to give a definition) or "Over my dead body!" None of which are particularly productive - all the old arguments, like "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" were raised again (with predictable results) but there were precious few actual facts to be found.
The debates have brought out the question of will gun controls actually prevent, or even help prevent, homicides or mass killings, though. No one seems to know, or even care - we just have to do something - so I went looking for answers and preferably answers from someone without an axe to grind. I've seen the opinions and looked at some options and controls but wanted some hard data to make a decision with - something beyond a simple opinion based on fear or dismay at what happened that sad day in Newtown.
To make it very clear, I am a gun owner. I don't carry a concealed weapon for self defense, I don't hunt, and very rarely even shoot my guns so loss of them would affect me very little. On the other hand, I am concerned about any loss of personal freedom, and feel that the government needs to tread very carefully there; that it is important to keep what freedoms we have. The days after the Sandyhook incident were sad ones for me as I watched my grandchildren in their school and feared for their lives. I want a solution to the killings and murders in America, but I very much want one that will work, not just a sop to soothe our conscience until the next time it happens.
Here, then are the statistics and data that I found. It is presented in graph form for easier examination, but the hard numbers are also given at the end of this article. Make up your own mind about the effectiveness of gun controls, just as I have.
Gun Ownership VS Gun Homicides
I found lots of numbers being bandied about concerning gun related homicides so let's start there. Reliability of data is always a primary concern and the information contained in the graph above comes from UNODC, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime and from Small Arms Survey, a highly respected source that the UN often uses itself.
Data was chosen from 42 countries out of the 170+ that were available, and is primarily from 2007 as the most recent year with data from most countries. Data was not always available in or near that year for the areas needed, and a few of the data points come from the closest year to 2007 where it was available. Middle east countries were rejected in total for lack of data as well as for not being representative culturally of industrialized nations and for being very violence prone.
The bar graph has a few odd "spikes" in it that are almost certainly the result of factors other than gun ownership. Mexico, for instance, has a very large problem with drug lords and in some areas is almost a military operation. South Africa and Brazil were both deleted from this graph because of enormous homicide rates that clearly have to little to do with the question of gun control, although that data is available in the charts at the bottom of the article.
Looking at this graph, there is no firm equation between gun ownership and gun homicide rates, but we can see a rough correlation. In general, as the gun ownership rises, so does the gun homicide rate. More guns means more gun deaths. There are some problems with making the connection, though, that need to be carefully considered. There are those odd spikes out of nowhere that should probably be disregarded as being caused by some factor other than gun ownership rates. We can see a correlation, but that is not indicative of cause.
As an example of this type of statistics problem, speed limits on American highways were reduced in the 70's to 55 MPH everywhere in the country. Not surprisingly, car deaths went down right with the speed limit but when the limit was raised again a few years later they did not climb back to where they were. Can we then say that higher speed limits don't have a major affect of car related deaths? No, because in those intervening years seat belts, air bags, antilock brakes and other safety improvements all grew in popularity and were an additional, primary, factor in preventing deaths. In just that manner, the deaths from the drug war in Mexico will skew the figures from that country; extraneous causes must always be looked for and considered.
In addition, even though we find a correlation between the number of guns and the number of gun deaths, that correlation is worthless in deciding whether or not reducing the number of guns will save lives. We need to look at the total, overall homicide rate instead. The premiss is that if guns are not available the killers will use another tool, but is it true?
Gun Ownership VS General Homicide Rate
In this graph we find some of the same huge spikes, but what we can't find is much correlation between gun ownership rates and overall homicide rates.
Yes, as we move from the left (low ownership) to right (increasing ownership) the rate of homicide rises. But then it drops back to near zero, rises again, drops once more and finally rises slightly near the end with a blip (the US) as the last point on the graph. If we disregard those tall single spikes (that are scattered throughout the graph) as anomalies with a different cause we have nearly a straight line with little variance. It wavers a bit up and down, but not significantly so.
So this graph cannot really show that gun controls will affect the homicide rate. What about one particular country that instituted strong controls? One that we have data for both before and after the controls were instituted? Australia is such a country; let's look at that.
Homicide Rates in Australia, Over Time
The data for this graph was compiled from the same source as earlier graphs, UNODC, as well as Wikipedia. The information from the UNODC only went back to 1995 so the years from 1990-1994 were taken from Wikipedia. It's worth noting, though, that Wikipedia agreed with the UNODC data for later years so there is no real reason to disbelieve it for the earlier years.
Australia instituted strong gun controls in 1996, making it one of the most restrictive nations in the world. Did it help?
Prior to 1990, the homicide rate in Australia was in a very gradual decline, and after that date basically continued the same decline as the graph shows. Yes, there was a downward blip in 1998, followed by an even greater upwards blip in 1999. The graph pretty much levels out after that for several years, once more starting a gradual decline in about 2003.
This conclusion is born out by data from the Australian government as well. Graphs of homicide victims located at the link here show the same gradual decrease in the number of victims with no significant change in or shortly after 1996.
Nor is this conclusion unheard of. Joyce Lee Malcom, professor of Law at George Mason University, has looked at both the UK and Australian experience with very similar conclusions. Her report in the Wall Street Journal on the effectiveness of strong gun controls is instructive.
It seems unlikely, then, that strong gun controls had much effect on the homicide rate over the years in Australia. Other factors are most likely causing the slow decline seen over decades.
But if the homicide rate didn't fall as a result of the new law, what about mass murders like Sandy Hook? Well, Wikipedia gives a list of mass murders, or massacres, in Australia. It shows that since the new law there have not only been more such incidents, but more people are being killed as well. When guns were not available the killers turned to matches; the arson rate went up, with more people being killed per incident. It would seem that taking guns away, in this case, resulted in more deaths, not fewer, even though the number of deaths by gun fell.
Is the above video of somber actors and actresses in black, promoting gun control and earning a living from gratuitous violence onscreen, a part of the problem?
We pay lip service, but will not consider changing our culture to one less infatuated with violence, less filled with sights and sounds of killing every day. I can't answer definitively, but it certainly sounds reasonable to me. We glorify violence and killing while wondering why we see so much of it.
So Are Strong Gun Controls Effective?
While the first graph does show that decreasing the number of guns corresponds to a decreasing number of gun related homicides, that's a no-brainer. Take away the guns and killers won't kill with guns.
Far more interesting is that we find no correlation between gun ownership rates and general homicide rates. Take away the guns and killers still kill, they just don't use guns to do so. This is true whether looking at a variety of countries with a variety of gun ownership rates or at a single country that instituted strong controls.
You will make your own decision as to the effectiveness of gun controls in preventing homicides, but it appears plain to me that it does not do so. If we want to avoid another Newtown incident we need to spend our time and resources looking elsewhere, because it wasn't caused by guns and removing guns won't help. Given that, there is no reason to further infringe on citizen rights to own weapons.
We might look hard at how we view and treat mental illness, we might look at stopping gang activities or drug related violence. We can put some thought into the violence our kids see on TV or in life - about how to change the violence our culture produces. There is something wrong in America, but it isn't coming from guns. They are only the tool being used to express that violence.
Following the data list below is a section to record your own comments, I and others would love to hear from you; what your decision on the advisability or effectiveness of gun control is and why.
Data in Numeric Form
Country
| Gun ownership rate
| Gun homicide rate
| General homicide rate
|
---|---|---|---|
Australia
| 15.0
| .02
| 1.2
|
Austria
| 30.4
| .02
| .05
|
Belgium
| 17.2
| .07
| 1.9
|
Brazil
| 8.0
| 18.0
| 22.3
|
Canada
| 30.8
| .06
| 1.8
|
China
| 4.9
| 0.0
| 1.2
|
Cuba
| 4.8
| .02
| 5.0
|
Cyprus
| 36.4
| .03
| 1.2
|
Czech Republic
| 16.3
| .03
| 1.9
|
Denmark
| 12.0
| .01
| .07
|
Egypt
| 3.5
| .04
| .09
|
England & Wales
| 6.2
| .01
| 1.5
|
Finland
| 45.3
| 0.5
| 2.4
|
France
| 31.2
| 0.1
| 1.3
|
Germany
| 30.3
| .02
| .09
|
Greece
| 22.5
| .03
| 1.1
|
Hungary
| 5.5
| 0.1
| 1.5
|
Iceland
| 30.3
| 0.0
| 0.7
|
India
| 4.2
| 0.4
| 3.4
|
Ireland
| 8.6
| 0.4
| 1.8
|
Israel
| 7.3
| 0.1
| 1.9
|
Italy
| 11.9
| 0.7
| 1.1
|
Japan
| 0.6
| 0.0
| 0.5
|
Latvia
| 19.0
| 0.2
| 4.1
|
Luxemburg
| 15.3
| 0.4
| 1.5
|
Mexico
| 15.0
| 3.7
| 8.1
|
Netherlands
| 3.9
| 0.3
| 1.0
|
New Zealand
| 22.6
| 0.1
| 1.1
|
Northern Ireland
| 21.9
| 0.2
| 1.5
|
Norway
| 31.3
| 0.1
| 0.6
|
Panama
| 21.7
| 8.6
| 13.3
|
Peru
| 18.8
| 2.1
| 10.4
|
Poland
| 1.3
| 0.1
| 1.4
|
Portugal
| 8.5
| 0.5
| 1.7
|
Romania
| 0.7
| 0.0
| 1.9
|
South Africa
| 12.7
| 17.0
| 37.9
|
Spain
| 10.4
| 0.1
| 1.1
|
Sweden
| 34.6
| 0.1
| 1.2
|
Switzerland
| 45.7
| 0.8
| 0.7
|
Turkey
| 12.5
| 0.8
| 3.6
|
Ukraine
| 6.6
| 0.2
| 6.3
|
United States
| 88.8
| 3.8
| 5.7
|
Questions & Answers
You mention homicides, but what about other gun-related death (suicide, accidents)?
It is certainly opinion only, but I can't see forbidding people to have something they want, simply because someone else will use it improperly and hurt themselves. Ensure that a gun is as safe as possible to use, and let people have it. Otherwise we'd be banning cars, chain saws, lawn mowers, a whole host of things.
And it REALLY isn't right to ban a product because some people will use it as a tool for suicide. That list might include rope, rat poison, cars and razor blades (useful for slitting wrists). Sleeping pills would be high on the list.
So I reject the idea that government is our nanny, our parent responsible to make sure we don't handle anything dangerous because we children are not competent to do so. And left that consideration out of the article as a result.
Helpful 2Can the government disarm Americans?
Technically, no - the constitution protects the right to own and bear arms.
As a practical matter, yes it can. Enough spin, enough judges willing to sidestep our constitution and laws, enough liberal politicians wishing to control the people and anything can be accomplished. One has only to look at the current uproar over "assault weapons", which nor nothing more than hunting rifles with cosmetic changes to look scary, to see it happening.
Helpful 1Why is the US justice system so weak toward homicides?
My opinion only, but perhaps because it is so caught up in controlling guns that the real causes of the violence are ignored? Or perhaps because it has become the norm to blame someone else for poor behavior ("He had a bad childhood so is not responsible for his actions")?
© 2012 Dan Harmon
Comments
Thank-you, Dan! You are absolutely right to base opinions on facts and figures rather than emotion, which most gun control advocates do. Guns are not the problem. In past decades, there were many more guns per household than today. Most families had at least one gun, it was like having a rake, it was a tool you just had. Yet mass shootings were almost unheard of until recent years. What was the difference? It wasn't the availability of guns, so it is something else. In my opinion we need to spend more time thinking on that than about banning weapons. Great hub with tons of info! Congratulations!
Dan
I thought that the stat on Mexico was interesting.
With 17% of the gun ownership of the US
They have gun homicide almost the same as our. 3.7 to 3.8
and a general homicide rate of 8.1 to our 5.7.
Less gun owners, but almost the same gun homicide rate?
FYI
Mexico’s gun controls are strict and, when enumerated, read like a wish list for U.S. Senate Democrats. Think about it: For a Mexican citizen to legally acquire a gun, he or she must obtain a license, a process which requires them to pass a background check. That background check looks at criminal history, mental history, physical health and any past drug additions.
Making the background check even more onerous, CBS News reports, is the requirement that applicants submit six pieces of documentation: A birth certificate, a letter confirming employment, proof of a clean criminal record from the attorney general’s office in the applicant’s home state, a utility bill with current address, a copy of a government-issued ID and a federal social security number.
Dan
Agreed
and the I in FBI seems today to mean incompetence.and not Investigation. When you don't even satisfy your name FBI then that should be at least one of the problems.
I doubt if you are going to hear from Mike or ME on this article.
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Dan
The most important point was that student lives were lost while sheriff deputies listened to the shots that Cruz fired inside the school, but they stayed outside.
While they didn't go inside the school lives were lost.
This was a big law enforcement failure, yet it wasn't an issue for the gun control people.
Second
The sheriff had a deal with the Parkland school district to not file criminal charges against the students, as the school would lose federal money offered by Obama.
Cruz had numerous incidents that were criminal but not filed.
The police had numerous complaints about Cruz, even from his mother before she died.
After the shooting the FBI said we are not sure if this was the same Cruz. They would have known if they would have followed up the leads they were given.
That to me is something unlike gun control that is straight forward to address and fix. Gun control because it already exists, and fails cannot be directly assessed as to the value in lives it may save by adding to it.
In the case of Broward their sheriff failed to protect or serve, and yet no one seemed to care!
Dan
I am sorry to be persistent, but I think it is an issue bigger than gun control.
I have copied what I am talking about.
"IIf the existing gun control is not sufficient to solve the problem, then maybe that is the evidence that more gun control is not the answer. And the answer may be the person.
In the Parkland shooting, the government already had the necessary info, but didn't follow it. In addition, they already had an armed sheriff deputy assigned to the school, but while he and his other 3 deputies could have saved lives by confronting the shooting. They were in safety outside the school while they listened to the deadly shots being fired by Cruz inside.
Yet, the gun control people don't even think that is an issue.
Why, because that doesn't help their political agenda."
Dan
What about the law enforcement aspect that I mentioned in my previous comment?
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Dan
First, I don't believe in more gun control. We should fully enforce the existing laws. We have immigration laws but we don't fully enforce them. And the same is true of most of our laws including gun control.
I am not a believer of statistics, as they don't give the real issues. For example, how does comparing the world wide statistics to the US. The US is a unique country with unique differences. Just look at numbers doesn't do it for me.
This doesn't mean, I don't appreciate the work you put into this article. I do.
My point is that the root of the gun control issue is political.
and their premise is the people don't kill, guns kill.
I believe that answer is more like the "follow the money" saying, but change it to "follow the shooter, not the gun"
IIf the existing gun control is not sufficient to solve the problem, then maybe that is the evidence that more gun control is not the answer. And the answer may be the person.
In the Parkland shooting, the government already had the necessary info, but didn't follow it. In addition, they already had an armed sheriff deputy assigned to the school, but while he and his other 3 deputies could have saved lives by confronting the shooting. They were in safety outside the school while they listened to the deadly shots being fired by Cruz inside.
Yet, the gun control people don't even think that is an issue.
Why, because that doesn't help their political agenda.
Gun confiscation.
del if u wish
I once published two pictures of rifles and asked which one should be banned. Both pictures were literally the same rifle belonging to me. It was a Russian SKS with the first picture depicting the original wooden stock and the second picture with an aftermarket black metal and plastic stock. That was the only change, but the left voted 100% to ban the altered rifle based solely on appearance.
This is simple hysteria, especially in light of the hard fact that rifles of all kinds, which would include so-called 'military-style' rifles, are used to murder less than 250 people a year! Compare that to totally unarmed murderers using just hands and feet to murder 660 people and 1567 murders using knives!
Dan, you have written about a very hot topic in America. I was taught as a little boy how to handle guns as soon as I was able to walk. I was a hunter and enjoyed many years of it. I grew up as a country boy in the 1950s and 60s so things were different in my time. I am against any civilian owning a military style rifle. Those are meant to kill people, pure and simple. I would never suggest that guns should be taken away from hunters, people enjoying shooting target practice, people shooting in competitions, or people owning a gun for self defense. I see the biggest problem in the mass shootings in America, is that everyone that did such a horrible act was mentally ill. Why is anyone that is mentally ill allowed to by a gun, period. We all have our opinions about gun control, I have mine, your have yours, and every American has theirs. When children aren't safe in schools, it is no longer the America that I grew up in. These are just my opinions, Dan. Thanks for writing this article, it was well worth reading.
Wilderness, this is well researched, and I, grudgingly, acknowledge this. You have made your point here and I find nothing wrong with the research and the conclusions that you have come to as a result. I won't challenge you from this perspective again. Brazil and South Africa did stand out as interesting exception, relatively low gun ownership with a homicide rate that is quite notable. I wonder what is driving the statistics in these two societies?
I would suggest an analysis of the actual homicides would be helpful. Chicago has a gang problem, not a gun problem. Possessing guns does not correlate with gun violence, crime does.
Appreciate your effort and the data provided.
There are two kinds of assault weapons, Shyron E Shenko. One is a military designation and the other is left wing propaganda, promoted by the likes of Dianne Fenstein, a liberal nincompoop of the first order.
A true assault weapon has a selective fire switch which usually allows a three round burst or full automatic whenever the trigger is pressed. They are strictly military and not available to the general public.
A Dianne Feinstein assault weapon is anything that looks military. She did not ban the Ruger Ranch Rifle but she did want to ban the exact same Ruger Ranch Rifle with a different stock that was black plastic instead of wood.
She's an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about. Don't listen to her or any of the other liberal fools.
Hello Dan, this is an interesting article, but it does not say where you stand on gun control, but I will tell you where I stand.
Guns for protection/sport are fine with me, but assault weapons, I would be in favor of the ban (same as was in place when Bill Clinton was our President.)
You ask what is an assault weapon, it is a gun that holds enough bullets to kill more people in rapid fire (a fraction of a second) as opposed to having to reload after six shots (giving the children a few seconds to find a safe hiding place while he reloads.)
I am in favor of back ground checks, and anyone with a history of mental illness should not be sold any kind of weapon.
I know from personal experience that any gun control or lack of gun control will prevent all shooting/killings.
Blessings
@wilderness - cheers for the reply. I certainly don't know the ins and outs of gun control laws in the US, so my views may well be ill-informed in some areas.
But there are certain things which, as an "outsider", baffle me. For example the way background checks are inconsistently handled (private seller loophole and some states not feeding important records into the federal database).
Whilst I get that making background check laws fit-for-purpose on the federal level would not solve the root of the problem, the fact no one can get a reasonable Bill through to fix it is actually the reason I would focus on it to start with. If you can't even take small steps to get you moving, you'll never make the big lasting changes on the root causes either.
I quite liked this article on the subject (and personally think Connecticut's 1995 approach sounds very sensible):
Interesting topic, for sure. As someone who lives in the UK where gun ownership is illegal, a few thoughts crossed my mind when reading it (many of which I'm sure have been mentioned in other comments, but I confess to not reading all of them!).
1.) Totally agree that tackling the root causes has to be the main long-term priority. Doing so to a significant degree would change the culture in the US over time and I suspect mean gun ownership would decline naturally as a result.
2.) However, I take issue with the idea that focusing on #1 means there is no point considering gun control of any form (leaving aside the obvious cultural/constitutional blockers for a moment). Rarely can something so complex be tackled on a single level - even if guns merely make it easier to commit a crime the person would commit by other means anyway, the stats here aren't enough to determine whether some form of gun control would have a net benefit (non-homicidal crimes and types of homicide need to be considered, at the minimum).
3.) One obvious example I've seen mentioned in the comments are mass shootings. If that kind of crime were significantly reduced by a reasonable level of gun control, is it worth considering even if there is no statistical difference in overall homicide rate?
4.) I'm reminded a bit of the law-maker paradox, which says that if criminals don't follow laws then putting laws in place merely serves to negatively affect law abiding citizens. In the real world we can observe that, overall, this is not the case (though there will be exceptions, of course). I mention this only because I see a lot of resistance to the concept of any level of control, but is it a proportionate response given complete freedom in most areas is curtailed?
I don't pretend to know whether any of these points are valid, but I think the entire gun debate is stuck on meaningless emotional arguments that help no one. This article is a good starting point for taking the discussion further.
@wilderness: thank your for your reply. I just checked UNODC data for 2007 and found that the General Homicide Rate for Austria, Denmark, Egypt and Germany should all be multiplied by 10 in the above table (i.e., 0.5, 0.7, 0.9 and 0.9 respectively instead of .05, .07, .09 and .09 respectively) I didn't check the other columns. Hope this helps and thank you very much for your article and comments.
@wilderness: my point, precisely. The data above shows for Switzerland: gun homicide rate = 0.8, general homicide rate 0.7. Something is not right here, besides the fact that the general homicide rate in this country cannot be 10x the Danish rate or 15x the Austrian rate. I wonder what the source of the data is.
Half the gun deaths in the US are from suicides. That is not a gun control issue, it is a social issue as to the reasons why people want to kill themselves. Gun control or gun removal is only one way to commit suicide.
Please check the data: the general homicide rate for Switzerland is lower (!) than the gun homicide rate...
I agree completely that gun control is ineffective. Criminals, by their nature, ignore the law. It seems crazy to deny self-defense rights to millions of law-abiding citizens, actually making it easier for the criminals to ply their trade.
You neglect a major factor in europe's rates, that of commitments to mental institutions. Theirs is 10x that of the US. Methinks that would change our violence picture, particularly for so-called mass shootings.
(extremely common for a nube to swing the barrel past/through someone else)
I did that exactly once and my Dad's reaction is still ringing in my ears! I never did it again.
^-^
"Although to be fair, it's a lot easier to use a gun (safely) than drive a car (safely)."
That's very true, Dan, and that was also my point. Guns are actually very safe to use with just a few, elementary precautions.
The first thing Dad taught me was that a gun is always loaded, so always keep it pointed in a safe direction and never point it at anything you do not intend to shoot. We were also taught that we were never to touch a gun without his permission and supervision.
Most other shooters were taught the same thing.
Arizona still issues concealed carry permits and they do require passing a course. Those permits are honored by 29 states so it pays to get the permit.
BTW, out of a nation of over 320,000,000 people and over 300,000,000 legally owned guns, in 2013, just 505 people were accidentally killed in firearms accidents. While that's still 505 too many, it's an amazingly small number, and many of those accidents were the work of careless criminals who could not legally own a gun.
By comparison, licensed and trained drivers killed over 30,000 people that same year.
Arizona passed a law that any law abiding citizen can carry concealed with no permit. Opponents and skeptics warned of blood flowing in the streets if unlicensed and untrained citizens were allowed to exercise their right to be armed.
It has now been the law for six years, and contrary to all the dire warnings, nothing happened other than a decrease in armed robberies, hijackings, etc. Apparently, criminals are very reluctant to chance being shot.
While I personally recommend training in self defense, it seems that crazed gun toting vigilantes are a rarity. Most ordinary armed citizens are quite sensible and a threat to no one except criminals.
Informative article Wilderness. Thanks . . . having listened (seen) it referenced in the forums I finally read it. While loyal to the 2nd Amendment as a purist with rights, I still 'ponder' controls. A puzzle is, a puzzle be . . .
I will check it out.
And the carnival idea is brilliant
Good for you, I like to watch him but I don't think I could make those color picks from the palette. He really gets a kick out of beating the brush.
You should post some of your paintings.
That N gauge is something, you could make a layout on a chess board.
I have an HO set and a 4x10 table for Christmas. It has a town, a park, etc.
I wanted to replace the old incandescent lighted village pieces with some leds.
Believe it or not in the multi million population of S California there are only two model train stores within a twenty mile range.
I can't paint, but I watch Bob Ross on PBS.
Ft I have seen, you do a great job of showing the details and making it understandable as well.
Got anything on model railroads?
As you saw, I did find other than social commentary in your hubs that interested me.
Looking forward to reading your next hub
When I said take away their business , I meant in the context when we fight their illegal activity. We are trying to get control of their business in the sense that we are trying to stop them from doing business.
The more the government controls guns the more it will be another business for the criminals.
Wilderness
What I think is that when we take away the business of the criminals they fight back, and they have the resources from the illegal money they made. Take a look at the Mexican drug cartel, they own the Northeast part of Mexico, and Mexico leaves it alone for the most part.
Unfortunately for us, their biggest customers are here in the US.
There are already 2.2 million people in our jails, and prisons today, so we are losing that battle.
It seem like generation after generation the people get a little less smart.
I agree
Amen, pass the break lol
'Another factor are the gangs and their turf, and most of them are into supplying drugs.'
A very large factor indeed since they commit the vast majority of gun killings (after suicides which account for well more than half of all firearms related deaths).
Wilderness
There is a new bill that is proposed here in CA to tighten up on guns, and ammunition. The ammunition part would be a new check, and the other part is no large ammunition clips for guns, as it is illegal to buy in CA but possession is not illegal.
I believe that we already have enough controls, but the problem is that there is no funding to follow through on the background checks, and the funding to take the guns away from those people declared legally unstable.
Another factor are the gangs and their turf, and most of them are into supplying drugs. Remember that Los Angeles is the drive by shooting capital of the country. Our war on gangs is doing as badly as our war on drugs.
Unlike the random and unknown potential mass shooter, drugs, and gangs are visible and a known problem. If we can't solve that, then how can we solve the unknown volatile potential shooters?
I am not saying don't try, but put the main thrust of the law enforcement resources on the known and track-able criminals. It seems like the government has lost focus on these threats to society.
Wilderness
A Met fan just got beat up yesterday at a LA Dodger game. This could be similar to the SF Giant fan that got beat sense some years ago. This gives a new meaning to violent sport, and the fans are the violent ones.
Years ago, the Lakers fans rioted when their team won.
So maybe we are missing the obvious, generation by generation kids are less smart.
Illegal and legal drug use continue to increase every year, or maybe the news reports more each year.
Drugs have to be factored into the equation. And maybe it has ingrained itself into the DNA of future generations. Today we have more dangerous and mind bending synthetic drugs.
As for your restrict the tool, isn't that the same kind of problem as gun control?
Wilderness
Were straight, thanks for the effort.
As for child psychology, I agree with you. I am basing my opinion on what I thought when I was a child, and the fact that we didn't see any crazy reaction from kids that watched the cartoons. If there was some, I didn't hear about it, but then we didn't have the 24-7 news then.
Thanks again
Wilderness
I didn't see my second comment when I made my third comment.
If it was there, I apologize.
As to the Coyote, it is probably much dangerous for children that you can be flattened by a falling bolder, and then get up.
But because that cartoon was run for decades and we didn't see any bad actions from it. The children must have been smart enough to know cartoon characters are not real.
And the video gamers children have to make that same conclusion.
Thanks for the reply.
I agree, unless you can absolutely prove the connection between gun ownership and violence there should be no further restrictions imposed on law abiding citizens the would risk their Constitutional liberties.
You both make excellent points. With that said I will throw in my own observations.
At some point in our past, many parents quit teaching their children the same things we were taught. The work ethic of many of our young people is almost non-existant. As a former employer I could see the decline in work ethic over the years I owned my own business. There is much said by politicians regarding our high unemployment numbers, but very few applicants apply for even good paying jobs. Our welfare system has evolved to the point where it is far easier to just not work than it is to take a job and have to learn new skills. Very few schools even have vocational training anymore.
Our educational standards have sunk to the point that many high school graduates can barely read and write, let alone do simple math in their heads. There is much more emphasis on brain washing young minds than there is with filling their heads with knowledge.
God has been removed from almost every public school, perhaps from all of them.
We are so afraid of the PC Police that we give in immediately if something like the American Flag, a Nativity Scene, or something of that nature offends even someone who is in this country illegally. I seriously doubt that any other country in the world gives a damn if someone is offended by anything in that country. And that is how it should be.
Abortion has become so easy that many teen aged girs have had several, often without their parents knowledge. None of the fathers of these children are ever held accountable for their actions.
I truly believe we have sunk so low it is now impossible to restore this country to what it used to be. The mindset of so many is now so distorted that they honestly believe everything should be free. The thought of working and saving for something they desire just goes against the way they believe.
Sure, there are still some really good people out there, young and old, but they are now outnumbered by those who believe the "progressive" way is the right way.
Violence will continue to increase as the value we place on human life decreases.
I don't believe any civilization has ever survived and they all destroyed themselves. We will most likely be the next civilization to self destruct.
First you don't acknowledge my comment. and then you don't publish my second comment.
Don't both replying
I don't like gratuitous violence either, but if that's the real cause, why do fatherless kids commit crimes at far higher rates than kids living with both mom and dad, since they both watch such movies?
I have a vast collection of old time radio shows complete with old time network announcements. It's stunning for today's generation to hear CBS and NBC announcers encouraging listeners to attend churches and synagogues to worship. Imagine the angry uproar if that happened today.
We have drifted far from our national roots and moral standards due to progressive demands that "Susie Homemakers" get out of the house and abandon their children to day care, and that God be banished from public view. The stigma attached to out-of-wedlock sex and pregnancies has disappeared, and high school girls now proudly show off their swollen abdomens or get an abortion through their school without parental awareness. The boy-dads slink away with no intention of raising their child/children.
This problem runs very deep, and the solutions are not acceptable to progressives, so it can only get worse. The greatest nation on Earth is in a steep decline, and we may not be able to recover.
Wilderness
I respectfully disagree with arguments about video games.
First, even the cartoons were violent way before video games. The Coyote versus the Road Runner, Yosemite Sam versus Bugs Bunny.
A normal child never confused these cartoons with reality.
As a video gamer of first person shooter genre, I don't associate the events on the screen with real life. I have no tendency from playing these games to taking the violence outside into the real world.
Whenever you have millions of people doing something, there are those few that see it differently. In the case of video games, the fault lies in the user, and not in the games.
As far as I know there are no games where Suicide is the game winner. And over fifty percent of the gun deaths in this country are caused by suicide. Most of the rest of the suicides come from drugs, and mental conditions.
The violent video games allow a release of tension as do other ways of blowing off steam.
My martial arts instructor, would relieve his tension and stress by playing these video games. He could have just as well went to a bar and killed someone, or several people with his skills.
So don't underestimate the positive value of these video games.
There are truly sick people that play these video games, but they were sick before they played the games.
As in everything in life, there are always some exceptions to the rules. But if you were normal in mind, then you could play any of them without taking it to the streets.
my opinion
There are lots of stats concerning lack of a father in the home and crime, but I'm not aware of any concerning "fascination and glorification of violence".
Do you have a source?
The solution for a great deal of the violence is an intact, functional family with a loving father in the home. Nearly 80% of all prisoners either grew up without a father in the home or lived in a violent, dysfunctional home.
We need to reintroduce the stigmas that were once attached to drug usage, unwed mothers, divorces, domestic violence, and sex outside of marriage.
That may horrify some liberal people, but stigmas are very useful societal tools.
Sure, but it's not the 'crisis' hysterical liberals want us to believe. If you don't do any of those things, you are far more likely to die from a fall.
In the end, if you are not a criminal, not suicidal, don't use the illicit drugs that force you to deal with criminals, and are not a brave police officer, your chance of being shot in America is near zero.
I'm glad I stopped by to read this and look at the graphs. The data in numeric form is telling about different countries.
I think it is very wise that the mayor of Jerusalem is encouraging everyone with a gun permit to carry in light of the people who have been attacked and killed recently by enemy forces.
* It is the complete opposite of Obama's reasoning.
(will share this)
Statistics...Awesome! I like how you mention correlation does not equal causation Mr. scientist man. Very wise. But, your main point that guns do not really effect homicide may be true. However, I would argue that guns do effect homicide rates just a little. I reason this because guns help killers become more effective in their killings.
If you had a knife, it would significantly reduce your chances of killing as many people as possible than if you had a gun available. This simply just relates to mass murder, which is a very tiny portion of the homicide rates. Most homicides are committed in a spur-of-the-moment type fashion. Homicides are largely caused by uncontrollable emotions that burst up and cause destruction. Most homicides are committed by intimates and are not planned. Thus, guns would not really effect the majority of homicides and therefore gun control will not significantly effect homicide rates.
When guns are outlawed, criminals simply change tools. Now that no one legally carries a gun in the UK, knifings are on the rise.
Gun control can do no more than Prohibition did for Alcohol. abuse.
We have strong drug laws, and prisons filled with drug users, and drug dealer, yet the drugs keep a billion dollar criminal activity alive.
Half of the dun deaths were suicides.
Laws cannot change human nature, it can only hide it.
People are still smoking, even after the 1964 warning.
People still driving drunk, and still drinking a lot.
People are still taking illegal drugs, and today we have custom drugs, so there are many to choose from today.
Gangs in the world feed off the addicts in the US, and they have weapons, and arsenals that are bigger and better than the police.
"The way the world is going, perhaps I should carry all of the time?"
That's something I wonder about too. What if a shooter or terrorist(s) shows up and that's the day I chose to be unarmed? It's not likely at all, of course, but still...!
People are very creative, they can find a way to kill someone else whenever they want to. Like you, I do have a Concealed Weapons Permit and I do carry at times. The way the world is going, perhaps I should carry all of the time?
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